tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post1019976303729572236..comments2024-02-16T17:52:44.944-06:00Comments on The Nuclear Green Revolution: Killer Vegetables and the German Nuclear ShutdownCharles Bartonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01125297013064527425noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-70934922535734660142011-06-15T12:19:26.653-05:002011-06-15T12:19:26.653-05:00Wanna know why German environmentalists are so fan...Wanna know why German environmentalists are so fanatically anti-nuclear? Well, the Polish newspaper <i>Gazeta Ryborcza</i> discovered back in April that three German environmentalist groups – WWF Deutschland, Naturschutzbund Deutschland and BUND (the German division of Friends of the Earth) had between them received $10 million from a foundation.<br /><br />The sole sponsor of that foundation is Nord Stream AG, which in turn is controlled by Gazprom. Damn traitors &dash; Erich Honecker would be proud.<br /><br /><a href="http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&twu=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwyborcza.pl%2F1%2C76842%2C9383618%2CNord_Stream_kupil_niemieckich_ekologow_za_10_mln_euro.html&usg=ALkJrhi2Oss01RUjz7-8_6hU2UlILcAN5g" rel="nofollow">Here's a machine translation of the article</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-42563006968352077052011-06-14T17:19:56.936-05:002011-06-14T17:19:56.936-05:00Sione: So, given she has been proved correct by ev...<b>Sione:</b> <i>So, given she has been proved correct by events in Japan, the former-USSR, Gt Britain and even the USA (as well as on the high seas)</i><br />Not at all.<br /><br />No member of the public has been harmed by what happened and nor has the US nuclear industry harmed a member of the public (and the US Navy has a very good safety record with nuclear power).<br /><br />OTOH those coal burners Germany has been building to replace their safe nuclear power plants kill thousands each year through <em>normal operation</em> (i.e. you don't even need an accident for people to die).<br /><br />Even the worst nuclear accident hasn't killed any more than have died from non-nuclear accidents at things like chemical plants.<br /><br /><b>Sione:</b> <i>were I to give her your article to read it is reasonable to expect that she would disagree with your characterisation and provide ample reason for so doing.</i><br />She may provide reasons but I doubt they'd be any good for the arguments the pro-coal movement (and that is what the anti-nuclear movement really is) uses have pretty much all been discredited.<br /><br /><b>Sione:</b> <i>This issue really surrounds the question of what should be done when opinions on a subject differ. Whose view should predominate? Why should that be? What mechanism decides? Why is that a valid approach? Who is ultimately soverign?</i><br />Well it would certainly be a good idea of people would understand the science behind the decision and look at the statistics.<br /><br />Of course you aren't likely to do that as reality has a pro-nuclear bias.<br /><br />When a large population gets deluded then they should have to pay the costs of their delusions (especially when that costs falls on others) which if the German nuclear phase-out doesn't get reversed they will (especially when countries which are less irrational on that issue start putting steep punitive tariffs on their exports for the effects the German coal phase-in will cause to the planet's climate (or do you deny global warming?)).Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-80620939537613570792011-06-14T14:57:29.443-05:002011-06-14T14:57:29.443-05:00Sione I happen to be Jewish and I am not impressed...Sione I happen to be Jewish and I am not impressed with the good sense of the German people for obvious reasons. I am not at all impressed with the german lady who no doubts mistakenly believes that reactors are more dangerous than bean sprouts. Most Americans don't fear Islam as much as the Germans fear nuclear power. As for hispanic immigrants, no one objects to them if they are in this country legally. I am sympathetic to the undocumented immigrant, but the people who don't share my sympathy, hardly can be accused of demonizing them. <br /><br />Nothing I can say is going to change the views of the German majority so your advice to me is pure elephant shit.Charles Bartonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125297013064527425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-56143716621497412282011-06-14T14:29:04.257-05:002011-06-14T14:29:04.257-05:00"For Germans in 2011, the Devil has taken the..."For Germans in 2011, the Devil has taken the form of the nuclear power plant, and the Spanish cucumber."<br /><br />Paraphrasing, "For Americans in 2011, the Devil has taken the form of islam, and the hispanic immigrant."<br /><br />--<br /><br /> Charles, you are drawing a very long bow with this article and are well wide of the mark. <br /><br />For a start, that many people all over the world (including within Germany), oppose your favourite technology does not make them hysterical or irrational or wrong. Surely they are entitled to hold their values just as as you are entitled to hold yours? <br /><br />Having recently discussed matters nuclear with a German woman who happens to consider nuclear reactors hopelessly disasterous, I am certain that she would consider your views outdated, naieve and based on a misguided rehash of unreliable pro-nuke propaganda. So, given she has been proved correct by events in Japan, the former-USSR, Gt Britain and even the USA (as well as on the high seas) were I to give her your article to read it is reasonable to expect that she would disagree with your characterisation and provide ample reason for so doing. Indeed she'd be more than likely to consider your view to matters nuclear as wrong-headed as the ideology of the national socialists. She could fairly draw an analogy of your essay as equivalent to that of racial discrimination and the murdering of Jewish people simply for the fact of their ancestry and accident of birth. Of course, such an approach does nothing to resolve the differences in your viewpoints or to discern where the truth ultimately is to be found. Then again, neither does yours... <br /><br />This issue really surrounds the question of what should be done when opinions on a subject differ. Whose view should predominate? Why should that be? What mechanism decides? Why is that a valid approach? Who is ultimately soverign? <br /><br />In the present political situation ruling within the USA and in Germany the ideal that is widely promoted is that the common people decide through the mechanism of representative democracy. In this case what has occurred is that the German people expressed their preferences through their representatives and what they are expressing is that the vast majority of them do not want to suffer the presence of nuclear plants in their homeland. Interestingly enough, the stated special purpose of the USA has been, according to your President Wilson among many others, to make the world safe for democracy. For over 100 years this is what the US government has been promoting itself as doing, as it involved its military and other branches in an unending series of international conflicts, invasions, occupations and wars. American soldiers died for the idea of representative democracy. For you to oppose the German people expressing democracy within their own homeland is anti-democractic and, in the context, that must be understood to be un-American.<br /><br />Perhaps you might like to reconsider your approach to the German population. A clumsy smearing of Germans along the lines of "they don't agree with me therefore they are like the national socialists of lore" does your cause no favours whatsoever. Shame on you.<br /><br />SioneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-89936124796053933332011-06-11T12:50:59.360-05:002011-06-11T12:50:59.360-05:00Charles, thank you very much for this post, and no...Charles, thank you very much for this post, and not only for pointing out the similarities between the anti-Jewish hysteria then and the anti-nuclear hysteria now.<br /><br />I had not been aware of the origin of "The Protocols", and knew this nasty document only as something composed by some anti-Jewish group somewhere along back there. It's nice to be able to point out to those who STILL can't say use the term "communist" without coupling it with "Jews" or "Jewish". <br /><br />The Protocols still have a huge following, but not in Germany. For those who haven't noticed, this country is amply populated with paranoid right wing conspiracy freaks and militia nuts, and this nasty fraud is one of their favorite tomes, along with The Turner Diaries and Mein Kampf.The North Coasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14292115710427172625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-30747610627669147962011-06-09T07:10:18.508-05:002011-06-09T07:10:18.508-05:00ROFL! Nice parody...ROFL! Nice parody...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-79735294786539085392011-06-09T06:21:33.617-05:002011-06-09T06:21:33.617-05:00Nice! I myself am a German Bursche, so excuse my K...Nice! I myself am a German Bursche, so excuse my Klatchian when I say zat zis discussion is pure <a href="http://www.fagart.org/?area=achive&nr=49" rel="nofollow">art</a>. Have you never heard of Godwin's Law? <br />Going wiz ze flow, I must admit zat ze most xenophobic Nazis - generally all people in ze East wiz ze funny accents and no jobs - are also ze ones shouting "Atomkraft - Judenkraft!" ze loudest and buying ze most organic food. Zis last sentence made as much sense as the discussion above.<br /><br />And don't forget ze Desertec. It is lead by ze Deutsche Companies. What we really want is to enslave all North-African sand people under our solar zermal oppression. And zen, when ze power won't suffice, we will have to "adjust" ze population size zere. And we will blame it on zeir small neighbour country in ze east. Ve are a clever bunch, us Germans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-62412465608804436652011-06-08T10:45:53.138-05:002011-06-08T10:45:53.138-05:00==> IMHO I think it would be good to remember t...==> IMHO I think it would be good to remember that DISCUSSIONS and DEBATES are FACT-based. Fling enough UNCERTAINTY and DOUBT into a debate and FACTS become OPINIONS. DEBATES become ARGUMENTS which are won by the loudest, most emotional, and most frequently shouted OPINIONS. Watch for the FACT=>FUD=>OPINION transitions in news coverage of controversial issues such as evolution, global warming and nuclear power.<br /><br />After living in a small, rural German village for three years, and enduring the social pressure to conform to local customs, it seems to me that the social "norm" in Germany includes blind obedience, conformity, and absolute respect for authority, academic or political. It used to be known as the "Herr-Doktor-Professor" syndrome. Some Germans would wait forever for a defective traffic signal to change, even without any traffic, before crossing the street.<br /><br />There also seems to be a strong lemming mind-set in Germany. Hitler led millions over the cliff into WW II. Now the "greens" are leading millions over the cliff into energy poverty.<br /><br />The Russian slang nickname for Germans, "Dubwy", translates to "oaken-headed". Russian gas producers are about to become incredibly wealthy from the decisions of the "oaken-headed".LFTR_Fannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-83467819080352728142011-06-08T07:34:50.004-05:002011-06-08T07:34:50.004-05:00Interesting to compare Austria: This is the most a...Interesting to compare Austria: This is the most anti-nuclear country in the world. They, too, were reacting hysterically to Fukushima, calling for an end to nuclear power in all neighbouring states, and now want to block nuclear electricity coming to them from Czech reactors.<br /><br />When Hitler, who was born in Austria himself, came to power, Austrians welcomed him and gladly accepted to become part of nazi Germany. Video footage from the time shows Austrians fanatically demonstrating.<br /><br />More similarities between the anti-nuclear movement there and the nazi movement of then:<br /><br />- both are fanatical and don't allow rational debate about their ideas<br /><br />- staging huge demonstrations, with flags and symbols<br /><br />- boycotting companies directly or indirectly involved with "the enemy", anti-nuclear groups boycott banks for providing loans for nuclear projects, and have forced many banks to cancel such projects for fear of bad public relations<br /><br />- using propaganda, distributing leaflets that greatly exaggerate and distort facts <br /><br />This is more than coincidence, these folks have a tendency for fanatical causes, that eventually end up becoming a disasterAB400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-49179352248926769962011-06-07T14:43:20.342-05:002011-06-07T14:43:20.342-05:00Why couldn't the Nazis have just used nuclear ...<i>Why couldn't the Nazis have just used nuclear energy (among other things) to sustain the larger population they'd get had they actually been competent enough to succeed without killing everyone they conquer?</i><br /><br />Because then they wouldn't have been Nazis, just German imperialists. The whole basis of Nazi ideology was the view of world history as a life-and-death struggle between races over the means of survival.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-76781882189423820412011-06-07T08:17:29.883-05:002011-06-07T08:17:29.883-05:00George Carty: Why is no one mentioning that Genera...<b>George Carty:</b> <i>Why is no one mentioning that </i>Generalplan Ost<i> (the Nazi plan for genocide in Eastern Europe, of which the Jewish Holocaust was merely Phase One) was driven essentially by Malthusian considerations?</i><br />Why couldn't the Nazis have just used nuclear energy (among other things) to sustain the larger population they'd get had they actually been competent enough to succeed without killing everyone their conquer?<br /><br />Oh right, E=mc² is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik" rel="nofollow">Jewish physics</a>.<br /><br /><b>George Carty:</b> <i>We need a vast expansion of nuclear energy primarily so that we can send the Malthusians to the ash-heap of history where they belong.</i><br />Malthusian nonsense will keep popping up (and becoming population) no matter how many times it gets proven wrong (eventually it may someday be accurate but given how big the universe is that isn't something we need to worry about now).Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-44319475232912453162011-06-07T00:37:03.882-05:002011-06-07T00:37:03.882-05:00Why is no one mentioning that Generalplan Ost (the...Why is no one mentioning that <i>Generalplan Ost</i> (the Nazi plan for genocide in Eastern Europe, of which the Jewish Holocaust was merely Phase One) was driven essentially by Malthusian considerations?<br /><br />We need a vast expansion of nuclear energy primarily so that we can send the Malthusians to the ash-heap of history where they belong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-40418814400036557802011-06-06T23:48:28.796-05:002011-06-06T23:48:28.796-05:00Now they just backtracked and said the sprouts wer...Now they just backtracked and said the sprouts weren't the cause and that they still don't know.<br /><br /><b>Meredith Angwin:</b> <i>The level of prejudice shown by nuclear opponents sometimes takes my breath away.</i><br />To think they probably all consider themselves to be among the most tolerant people out there.<br /><br /><b>Duncan M:</b> <i>When you put events into context like that, I have to think it's better to have the Germans focused on killing nuclear power than to have them focused on killing Jews again.</i><br />Of course it would be better if they weren't focused on either.<br /><br />Still, I wouldn't want to be in the German nuclear industry right now.<br /><br /><b>Duncan M:</b> <i>I think it's probably a mistake to link the holocaust too tightly to the protocols of zion. The Germans have been hosting periodic pogroms against Jews since before the crusades. It's been a common theme throughout Europe for the past 1,000 years.</i><br />Christianity has had a long history of anti-Semitism and is probably where the majority of the blame should be directed but I highly doubt <i>The Protocols of the Elders of Zion</i> didn't contribute to increasing the hatred.<br /><br />Though come to think of it, if what were written in that were true then the Holocaust may well have been a justifiable act, it is mainly because they were factually wrong that they were morally wrong (and I think much the same applies to the anti-nuclear and their millions of victims from coal pollution and global warming).<br /><br /><b>donb:</b> <i>The ironic thing is that the disease outbreak could have been avoided by irradiating food to kill pathogens, using appropriate isotopes from (gasp!) a nuclear reactor.</i><br />Maybe, some foods will be damaged by even low doses of radiation and so can't be effectively sterilised that way (so always cook said foods).<br /><br />If the source of the outbreak were one of those foods then irradiation wouldn't have helped although it probably would be a good idea for food which hasn't been irradiated to be required to have a warning label stating that it should not be eaten raw.Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-72594436462670833352011-06-06T15:27:26.231-05:002011-06-06T15:27:26.231-05:00The ironic thing is that the disease outbreak coul...The ironic thing is that the disease outbreak could have been avoided by irradiating food to kill pathogens, using appropriate isotopes from (gasp!) a nuclear reactor.donbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-53703232685116962932011-06-06T14:54:44.106-05:002011-06-06T14:54:44.106-05:00Duncan M, except that today it is the the cucumber...Duncan M, except that today it is the the cucumbers and nuclear power plants, but after that who or what? We are confronted by a social phenomena that drives people to do unreasonable things. The real problem is the absence of a restraining mechanism.Charles Bartonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125297013064527425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-91706748959517134742011-06-06T14:44:25.940-05:002011-06-06T14:44:25.940-05:00When you put events into context like that, I have...When you put events into context like that, I have to think it's better to have the Germans focused on killing nuclear power than to have them focused on killing Jews again.<br /><br />I think it's probably a mistake to link the holocaust too tightly to the protocols of zion. The Germans have been hosting periodic pogroms against Jews since before the crusades. It's been a common theme throughout Europe for the past 1,000 years. I've read that Hitler's real innovation was to apply the technology of the industrial revolution to the effort.<br /><br />Anyway. The Germans are great people, but they are just batso crazy when it comes to nuclear power - been that way at least since Chernobyl. <br /><br />I used to cut my friends slack on the issue, since they had spent their youths under the spectre of tactical nukes from both sides in the Cold War. Now I just find it difficult to speak to them.Duncan Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-54558980286496014032011-06-06T09:22:10.239-05:002011-06-06T09:22:10.239-05:00I heard a VPIRG speaker at Putney School on May 5,...I heard a VPIRG speaker at Putney School on May 5, attacking Vermont Yankee, of course. One of the ways he attacked it was by imitating a Southern drawl. <br /><br />During the tritium "crisis" Entergy sent a high-ranking VP from headquarters to speak to people in Vermont. This VP is a Southerner. He spoke with a drawl. <br /><br />The VPIRG man at Putney school said that Entergy sending this (senior VP) person to Vermont just showed how out of touch Entergy is with Vermonters. The VPIRG guy imitated the drawl and got the students laughing. The underlying assumption: nobody in Vermont would listen to or trust someone with an accent? <br /><br />The level of prejudice shown by nuclear opponents sometimes takes my breath away.Meredith Angwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02737538041807740424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-63837254012578040932011-06-06T07:04:58.931-05:002011-06-06T07:04:58.931-05:00The last time I checked yesterday, the experts wer...The last time I checked yesterday, the experts were saying, "The true source may never be known."Charles Bartonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125297013064527425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7597656451205429515.post-70322118017048836302011-06-06T06:53:35.166-05:002011-06-06T06:53:35.166-05:00Now they're saying it was sprouts from an '...Now they're saying it was sprouts from an 'organic' farm.<br /><br />Probably not too big a surprise though there tends to be a lot of overlap between the 'organic' food fanatics and the anti-nuclear movement.Anonnoreply@blogger.com